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27th Jan 2019: TDC Mondello Multi-Venue Autotest
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27th Jan 2019: TDC Mondello Multi-Venue Autotest
Author Message
kingers



Joined: 16 Jun 2013
Posts: 137

Post Reply with quote
I can appreciate the concerns of competitors that have just bought tyres that would otherwise be illegal going forward - that's why we need to have these rules nailed down and signalled in good time.

I think we should continue to push for these changes so that they area in place for MVATs after Mondello. I think the following suggestion that was made could be as fair as possible under the circumstances -

Tyres are only legal if they are -

- On the 1A list
- Toyo R1R's and Nankang NS2R's


The idea behind that is that the 1A list is generally affordable and hits on the points that Mark Walsh made above.

R1R's and NS2R's are also reasonably affordable, perform somewhat similarly and come in sizes for 13's and 15's.

All of the above are E marked and road legal.

Everything else should be banned as they are either too expensive or create too much of an uneven playing field.

What do competitors and members of the Committee think of this proposal and can we possibly have a cut off date for the rule changes announced by the AGM?
Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:37 pm View user's profile Send private message
Big_Yellow_Taxi



Joined: 18 Apr 2018
Posts: 5

Post Reply with quote
javascript:emoticon('Shocked')

Is John Nolan Double Driving and Double Entered No 36 & No 38.

We marshals and observers have to be vigilant before and after the event.
Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:08 pm View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Damien



Joined: 03 Feb 2009
Posts: 226

Post Reply with quote
Tyre restrictions always ruin things. In autotesting all the minis are running 14s while the good 10 and 12 inch tyres are banned. Endurance trials have new rules that you need to puncture your rubbish tyres to be allowed to run proper tyres. MVATs don’t need this. Are people really running A050s? E marked tyres is simple and allows people to use the same tyres on Targas.
Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:38 pm View user's profile Send private message
Philip
TDC Committee Member


Joined: 02 Feb 2009
Posts: 266
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Post Reply with quote
Big_Yellow_Taxi wrote:
javascript:emoticon('Shocked')

Is John Nolan Double Driving and Double Entered No 36 & No 38.

We marshals and observers have to be vigilant before and after the event.


John Nolan is so excited for this event, he entered twice...
Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:39 pm View user's profile Send private message
Mark2



Joined: 16 Mar 2012
Posts: 77

Post Reply with quote
Damien wrote:
Tyre restrictions always ruin things. In autotesting all the minis are running 14s while the good 10 and 12 inch tyres are banned. Endurance trials have new rules that you need to puncture your rubbish tyres to be allowed to run proper tyres. MVATs don’t need this. Are people really running A050s? E marked tyres is simple and allows people to use the same tyres on Targas.


id have to disagree Damien if fact i would say the total oposite is happening and becomning aparent - lack of tyre restrictions is ruining things. and yes, most of the front running cars are using A050's for the last good number of events, some using multiple sets of per event.

This is frustrating and demoralising the other 90% of the entry list who joined the sport so they could compete in a cheap car on a limited budget. without these people the events would not run. we need to listen to the majority, not the elite minority.

We have to be responsible to make it as fair as possible for the majority of people who we cater for with our clubman events... the clubman.

il say it again, there is absolutely no need for anyone to be running A050's or any other type of specialised tyre, if everyone else is on the same playing field.

All this does is alienate newcomers to the sport and bring back the perception that you need a big wallet to compete in the top half of the field in our events. this is wrong, and has to be controlled.



I think Brians post above has nailed it right on the head. work off the 1a list, with addendums as we need to for our own market. its extremely unfortunate that this was not able to be put in place for this event but its something i will be pushing for future events.

There is no need for anyone on our events to be running expensive competition tyres when the 90% of other entrants who support our events cant afford them. As i already said, if everyone is on the same tyre list, then the best driver should still win right?

I'm sorry but this is something i feel strongly about. we need to make sure the clubman competitor listened to. At the moment, he feels like he will never be able to compete, so why bother. That should not be the ethos of our events.

_________________
Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:58 am View user's profile Send private message
Damien



Joined: 03 Feb 2009
Posts: 226

Post Reply with quote
If a newcomer buys a cheap car to have a go he will have to buy 4 new tyres + spares from list 1a?
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:09 am View user's profile Send private message
Mark2



Joined: 16 Mar 2012
Posts: 77

Post Reply with quote
maybe so - but he wont have to buy 4 A050's + spares at a cost of about 800euros if he wants to be within an asses roar of the oposition

theres some quite good tyres on that list that perform well in all conditions for about 30-40 euros online.

TDC doesn't run endurance trials at the moment, which run under different rules so thats for a different discussion.

_________________
Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:08 pm View user's profile Send private message
Philip
TDC Committee Member


Joined: 02 Feb 2009
Posts: 266
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Post Reply with quote
Incredible entry list after less than 3 days since the entry opened. We have over two weeks to go before the event and we have no doubt we're going to see entries continue. We took 90 entries last year before we opened our reserve list. Don't be disappointed, if you want to compete get your entry in now!

Philip
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:18 pm View user's profile Send private message
Eoin Murray



Joined: 09 Jan 2019
Posts: 6

Post Reply with quote
Lads I understand the tyre situation is a tricky one. I want to post some facts as I think they are lacking here.

Yokohama competitor Prices are as follows:
185/60R13 A021R € 110.12 incl. vat each
185/70R13 A021R € 73.67 incl. vat each
185/60R14 A021R € 114.01 incl. vat each
175/60R13 A050 € 102.19 incl. vat each
185/60R14 A050 € 112.85 incl. vat each
195/50R15 A050 € 121.77 incl. vat each
VEMC government charge €3.44 incl. vat each

The best suited size for our starlet is 175/60R13. A050 is E marked and cheaper than A021R so makes logical sense for us to use it. We double drive and get 2 events out of either tyres.

If single driving you should easily get 3 events out of a set. So if using 175/60R13 A050 your total tyre cost per event is €68.13 (based on 2 x fronts for a FWD car). This is the total cost that's being debated. However not mentioning the money being spend on massively modified car builds!

We are the only front runner using A050 (to date) so I guess the proposed ban is due to our pace on the tyre. The A050 performance is very similar to A021 so if required we are happy to purchase another set and use them instead.

If a tyre rule is enforced I think a lot of thought should be put into it in terms of what is available and can be used across a wide variety of cars. It's evident that the cheap road tyres puncture easier on these types of events.


Last edited by Eoin Murray on Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
Thu Jan 10, 2019 9:39 pm View user's profile Send private message
kingers



Joined: 16 Jun 2013
Posts: 137

Post Reply with quote
Hi Eoin, thanks for posting up the prices.

13’s in both tyres are reasonably affordable but it starts to get too pricey in my opinion for 15’s. I paid c.€240 for the pair of A050’s and €40 to have them fitted locally. c.€290 and they didn’t last the whole event. Granted, it was Holfields in the summer, so very high on wear but I feel that type of outlay is not sustainable for the wider field of grassroots competitors.

We must have tyres that are more equal at all sizes and while both A021R and A050 give fast times and are cheap in 13’s, I think they should be banned because a similar tyre in 15’s can’t be got without spending a good deal more.

What’s wrong with everyone using NS2Rs or R1Rs?
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:05 pm View user's profile Send private message
Eoin Murray



Joined: 09 Jan 2019
Posts: 6

Post Reply with quote
€40 to fit two tyres, thats crazy!

Myself and Niall did Holfelds & Franks double driving on the one set of A050 and there was still thread left. It’s control tyre for Fiesta ST race series, they easily do 2 qual and 4 races. If you only got half an event there was something seriously wrong.

R1R are better than NS2R and not available in 13 or 14”. I don’t think a control tyre is going to be that easy.
Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:33 pm View user's profile Send private message
kingers



Joined: 16 Jun 2013
Posts: 137

Post Reply with quote
Ya with the increase in Tyre disposal fees, lots of places are charging €20 a corner, the best I’ve found is €15 a corner.

I had to change tyres for the last lap in Holfelds, but regardless of wear rates, I think they are too expensive for 15’s. That’s no reflection on your pricing by the way- you always great to deal with!

A pair of R1Rs in the same 195/50/15 size are nearly €100 cheaper, fitted. That’s quite a substantial difference.
https://www.tyreleader.ie/car-tyres/toyo/proxes-r1r/195-50-r15-82v-884087

I’ve ran R1Rs and NS2R’s on the Ignis and they are very similar, with the R1R being a bit better on the loose, but nothing like the gulf that exists presently between A021R / A050 and these tyres. The NS2R is probably the more durable of the two.

I know R1R aren’t available in the smaller sizes and that’s why the closest tyre in terms of price and performance with sizing (NS2R) is being suggested for the 13’s and 14s.

I agree that a control tyre is probably not going to be possible with the different sizes but I think it is undeniable that this proposal is a lot more level playing field and at a more affordable prices.

At the end of the day, we’re trying to make positive suggestions to make the playing field closer and more affordable. You have a great knowledge of the tyres available - can you suggest any other two tyres that are in the same price bracket that also cover both sizes?
Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:15 am View user's profile Send private message
DangerDoran



Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 221
Location: 123 fake st.

Post Reply with quote
Some good reading, it's good everyone is putting their opinion in as it will give more data for the club to make any(if any) decisions/rule changes.

To Answer Eoin's concerns: The regulation of tyres is not in response to anyone's pace. It is a impartial decision to try and keep the sport clubman. For example, I think A021R had been previously banned (unkown to me because I'm not out that much) and I continued to use them on the escort, which probably wasn't cricket on my part. The club designs events to attract all other enthusiasts to take part and hone their skills with autotesting. If it works out that A050's and A021R's are a cost effective tyre, that will be factored into any decision. Personally there are no other 13" tyres suitable for my Escort, which is developed for 185/70/13 profile. So if A021R do indeed get banned, I need to go back to the drawing board. The discussion surrounding tyres is regularly brought up at committee meetings, however, from the feedback leading up to this event, we may have missed the mood of some competitors regarding the issue.

With regards car development, this is part of the sport and enjoyment. The minimum regulation of naturally aspirated, 2WD only and all original bodywork sufficiently limits development and, so would tyres. If you limit tyres to road tyres only, higher horse power cars don't have as much of an advantage, which effectively reduces the gap a well developed car would otherwise have. Simple regs keeps the sport more accessible.

The club endeavors to keep as many competitors competing as possible.
Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:09 am View user's profile Send private message
Philip
TDC Committee Member


Joined: 02 Feb 2009
Posts: 266
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Post Reply with quote
Just want to say a big thanks in advance to Bill & Dave from Bill Griffin Motors who have very generously come forward to TDC and have offered to sponsor prizes. It's a family affair for those guys as you can probably all guess!

I believe they're also flat out preparing cars for the whole family to make an assault in Mondello, not an easy task as I'm sure they're up to their necks in customers for what is probably the busiest time of the year for them.

Why don't you head over to their website to see if they've any special deals on Starlet's Very Happy

http://www.billgriffinmotors.ie/
Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:54 am View user's profile Send private message
Faulkt1a
TDC Committee Member


Joined: 03 Feb 2009
Posts: 333
Location: Bray, Co. Wicklow

Post Reply with quote
" Rules for tyres are:
E marked and road legal
No ‘For Competition Use Only’ marked tyres
No ‘For Circuit Use Only’ marked tyres
A021R and A050 tyres are allowed as I understand entrants have these in stock or have bought for the event. This list essentially allows any tyres that have been previously used.

These type of events are fun events and are aimed at entry level clubman competitors. "

On tyres : can I point out that cost of new tyres is not the issue for budget level competitors. Nor how 'fancy' they are. He wants to run whatever 'Tescoaldilidl gummi rubber' is in his possession on the wheels of his car.

Rules, as few as possible, needs to cover the activity. Less scope for discussion = fewer rows/dissension.

If you want a debate on tyres, take it somewhere else appropriate. If you have a true question PM Dangerdoran.

ENOUGH !

Tim
Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:47 pm View user's profile Send private message
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