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TDC MVAT Tyre rule discussion

 
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TDC MVAT Tyre rule discussion
Author Message
Piers14
TDC Committee Member


Joined: 31 Jan 2009
Posts: 1886
Location: Leopardstown, Dublin

Post TDC MVAT Tyre rule discussion Reply with quote
It is worth pointing out that this discussions only relates to TDC as all other clubs still use the road legal tyre requirement with no exceptions.

The TDC MVAT regulation change was requested in 2017 to allow those with existing stocks of the A021 tyres to use them on single venue MVAT events. A021 tyres had previously been road legal e-marked and were popular. The only way to allow these tyres be allowed was to remove the road legal tyre requirement. So using the A050 tyres was within the rules as well.

I had asked the committee at the last meeting should we not look at going back to the existing rule as I expected that most stocks of the A021 tyres had been exhausted. The unfortunate thing is that we need to give advance notice of a tyre rule change to avoid penalising those who had bought some of those tyres.

_________________
Cars:
Mazda MX-5 MK1 MVAT/Targa car
Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:07 am View user's profile Send private message
Mark2



Joined: 16 Mar 2012
Posts: 78

Post Reply with quote
@eoin/niall... when did the price of the A021 change so much ? i checked last week and they were 106 or 108 i cant remeber exactly +vat
Also is this permanent or just an offer on the website for a short time?
if the A021 was always going to be around that price, thats certainly not ott price wise and should be attainable by most that want to run a performance tyre if they wish

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Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:36 am View user's profile Send private message
Eoin Murray



Joined: 09 Jan 2019
Posts: 6

Post Reply with quote
A021 185/70R13 are running at about 50% discount. We buy them in volume and get a good price. That’s always been the case.
Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:49 pm View user's profile Send private message
DangerDoran



Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 221
Location: 123 fake st.

Post Reply with quote
Yes, I have always bought from Murrays at a good price.

My 2 cents on the issue, committee member aside, would be to allow 1A, 1B and A021R and A050 from 1C. This gives a broad enough range of tyres and removes the confusing road legal tyres rule. We need a mix of accessible motorsport combined with performance. I think this will put a limit on tyre expenditure while allowing for reliable competition tyres.

This form of motorsport is primarily social, however, there does need to be a cap on tyres to keep it accessible.
Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:38 pm View user's profile Send private message
kingers



Joined: 16 Jun 2013
Posts: 137

Post Reply with quote
A021R’s are a great tyre in terms of performance and value - but only in 13’s!

The point I’ve been making is that you can’t get them in 15’s and 14’s are expensive.

A021Rs therefore create an uneven and unfair balance to the events. I’m sure everyone running 13’s will disagree Smile

A050’s don’t solve the problem either, as while they come in 15’s, they’re too expensive and aren’t durable enough (wear from Dec’s greasy MVAT, Stryker’s, ST’s etc are no yardstick to measure durability for our season of MVATs).

Tyres are the most expensive RUNNING (note - not upgrade) costs and make the easiest performance difference at events.

I can understand that people want to use tyre advantages to try to and make up for the performance deficit compared to other more expensive and developed machinery, but it’s not the fair answer and only drives up costs and the frustration of the budget competitor. A more even playing field is needed and tyre rule changes are the first step towards that.

We need to abolish the above tyres and any others that are either expensive, not sufficiently durable or that don’t have a similarly acceptable alternative between 13 & 15 inch rim sizes.

I’ve suggested 1a and two other semi-performance tyres (R1R and NS2R) that are suitable for MVAT use. Those tyres are similar in performance, affordable and more durable. The NS2R’s are available in 13’s and R1Rs in 15’s.

Can the debate be focused on the pros and cons of this proposal or other tyres that meet all the necessary criteria I’ve outlined, rather than why we should keep the tyres that are causing the existing unbalanced playing field?

P.s. Tim - just reverting to road legal is not going to solve the root issue as A050’s are E marked. The proposal of a cut off date is welcomed though.

As I said, rather than opting for a more expensive trackday / Motorsport tyre, I’m running R1Rs on Sunday, in the spirit of a fairer playing field and so that performance and durability can be compared and discussed. Hopefully we can work this out and make the events better again Smile

Is anyone planning on running a NS2R or anything non A021R / A050?
Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:54 am View user's profile Send private message
Damien



Joined: 03 Feb 2009
Posts: 226

Post Reply with quote
Since only a handful of people post on here, why not have a vote at sign-on on Sunday:

Stay - Keep tyre rules as they are for TDC events

Or

Leave - TDC committee to review and introduce a restricted tyre list
Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:12 am View user's profile Send private message
Faulkt1a
TDC Committee Member


Joined: 03 Feb 2009
Posts: 335
Location: Bray, Co. Wicklow

Post Reply with quote
Damien wrote:
Since only a handful of people post on here, why not have a vote at sign-on on Sunday:

Stay - Keep tyre rules as they are for TDC events

Or

Leave - TDC committee to review and introduce a restricted tyre list


No !.

Focus !

It will be a busy day with enough on without additional distractions.

Also; the discussion is contributed from one end of the spectrum. I want less rules and no prescription on brands and tyres. The guy who has round and black whatevers that came with the car wants to use those. To get out and compete he doesn't want to buy any : if what's on it isn't on the list he's out !.

And no 'policing' / officials to supervise required.

Tim
Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:20 am View user's profile Send private message
Mark2



Joined: 16 Mar 2012
Posts: 78

Post Reply with quote
kingers wrote:
A021R’s are a great tyre in terms of performance and value - but only in 13’s!

The point I’ve been making is that you can’t get them in 15’s and 14’s are expensive.

A021Rs therefore create an uneven and unfair balance to the events. I’m sure everyone running 13’s will disagree Smile

A050’s don’t solve the problem either, as while they come in 15’s, they’re too expensive and aren’t durable enough (wear from Dec’s greasy MVAT, Stryker’s, ST’s etc are no yardstick to measure durability for our season of MVATs).

Tyres are the most expensive RUNNING (note - not upgrade) costs and make the easiest performance difference at events.

I can understand that people want to use tyre advantages to try to and make up for the performance deficit compared to other more expensive and developed machinery, but it’s not the fair answer and only drives up costs and the frustration of the budget competitor. A more even playing field is needed and tyre rule changes are the first step towards that.

We need to abolish the above tyres and any others that are either expensive, not sufficiently durable or that don’t have a similarly acceptable alternative between 13 & 15 inch rim sizes.

I’ve suggested 1a and two other semi-performance tyres (R1R and NS2R) that are suitable for MVAT use. Those tyres are similar in performance, affordable and more durable. The NS2R’s are available in 13’s and R1Rs in 15’s.

Can the debate be focused on the pros and cons of this proposal or other tyres that meet all the necessary criteria I’ve outlined, rather than why we should keep the tyres that are causing the existing unbalanced playing field?

P.s. Tim - just reverting to road legal is not going to solve the root issue as A050’s are E marked. The proposal of a cut off date is welcomed though.

As I said, rather than opting for a more expensive trackday / Motorsport tyre, I’m running R1Rs on Sunday, in the spirit of a fairer playing field and so that performance and durability can be compared and discussed. Hopefully we can work this out and make the events better again Smile

Is anyone planning on running a NS2R or anything non A021R / A050?


I agree 100% Brian, you are spot on.

And for the record, in relation to your first comment, I run 13’s, and the A021R, or the ‘CBT – cheating b*stard tyres’ as they have been affectionately know, are a massive advantage.
And they might be value at the moment, but they were over 100+vat 2 weeks ago, so that’s 500 for a set.

I think derailing the discussion by deviating to car modifications is completely irrelevant – in fact, it actually goes to prove my point more.
The simple fact that 90% of the competitors that are running the motorsport tyres, are the people with the highly modified cars, so therefore the advantage is even more so.

Performance modifications will be LESS of an advantage if you do not have the tyre package to compliment the modifications. This will lead to more parity on the playing field.
It will reduce the performance advantage of AP brakes are adjustable dampers etc that the top cars run.
This can only be a good thing.

The bull needs to be taken by the horns and to have a fluid list that can be changed regularly to ban certain tyres to keep costs down for the majority which is the clubman competitor.

I stand by my opinions all through the posts – having expensive motorsport tyres in this branch of motorsport is wrong and alienates the clubman. Without them, we would have not events and no club.
Disregarding their opinion for the elite at the top is wrong.

It appears at the moment as nothing has changed, at least for this event. Having list 1a, 1b, and the two best high performance tyres for mvats from 1C, is basically everything is included.

Finally, anyone running the tyres you mentioned at the end, probably wont post here don’t worry

Wink

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Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:55 am View user's profile Send private message
Mark2



Joined: 16 Mar 2012
Posts: 78

Post Reply with quote
Faulkt1a wrote:
Damien wrote:
Since only a handful of people post on here, why not have a vote at sign-on on Sunday:

Stay - Keep tyre rules as they are for TDC events

Or

Leave - TDC committee to review and introduce a restricted tyre list


No !.

Focus !

It will be a busy day with enough on without additional distractions.

Also; the discussion is contributed from one end of the spectrum. I want less rules and no prescription on brands and tyres. The guy who has round and black whatevers that came with the car wants to use those. To get out and compete he doesn't want to buy any : if what's on it isn't on the list he's out !.

And no 'policing' / officials to supervise required.

Tim


Tim I don’t even know where to start to be honest.

You saying you “want” less rules is sort of pointless, you don’t compete and you don’t use any of the tyres being discussed.

You are completely missing the point of the whole discussion?!............the discussion is about regulating the advantage that expensive motorsport tyres give, and also regulating the necessary spend the clubman has to outlay to try and keep up.

Just allowing everything to make life easier for (you?) is not the answer.

We’re not asking you to police anything, this can be discussed at the AGM perhaps in an open forum. Allow paying TDC members have a say rather than shouting NO! as the opening statement of your post.

_________________
Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:57 am View user's profile Send private message
Faulkt1a
TDC Committee Member


Joined: 03 Feb 2009
Posts: 335
Location: Bray, Co. Wicklow

Post Reply with quote
Mark

https://www.rallyscore.net/#/results/1060/852?Quinn-Truss-Targa-Rally

You stand corrected ! I do compete ! in a car ! that does have round & blacks !

The No is to a vote or anything else not to do with the event occur on Sunday !

One of the keys to autotesting has always been to keep rules to a minimum.

I missed no point; lists are prescriptive of what is allowed. The offbeat that people 'come bye' will not be included and those on lowest budgets don't buy and therefore can't compete.

Tim
Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:04 pm View user's profile Send private message
kingers



Joined: 16 Jun 2013
Posts: 137

Post Reply with quote
So any update on the tyre rules this season folks?

What were people's experiences at Mondello?

I found the R1R very good and wear levels were pretty low for all I think. I think they didn't have the same edge probably as the A050 or A021R which nearly all of the top 10 were running?
Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:16 pm View user's profile Send private message
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